My post on which pro-choice group to join had rather interesting comments. Since the responses I got were more along the pro-life/anti-choice variety, of which I knew many of my friends are believers, I figured that responsed would probably be very vehement and angry. I actually have no problem donating money to these groups because I believe that a woman has the right to choose - and I am not as pr-abortion as some. But I do believe that many (not all) pro-life groups ignore reality, fight only for life before it's born, or use their anti-choice beliefs to punish people for having sex. I also believe that birth control and abortion are ways to ensure that women are as "lucky" as men - through these health decisions women are on the same footing as men who are free to walk away from an unplanned pregnancy, a rape, an incestuous situation, etc. I also believe that an abortion is not used as birth control by the women who use it. I am sure there are exceptions, but this is a hard choice and must be made privately, with a doctor. I don't think a woman should be forced to have a baby. And both of these organizations do help women get sexual advice, information, and birth control to prevent abortions - because I don't think anyone actually LIKES abortion. I also know that they also provide information on adoption services and aid for those who don't want an abortion, as well as health information for both men and women, including how to stay healthy during a pregnancy - for those women who can't afford health insurance or an obstetrician.
http://www.plannedparenthood.com/pp2/portal/medicalinfo/
25 comments:
Here's what I don't get.
We live in a world where women are pregnant out of incest or rape. Women are pregnant who can't afford to raise a baby. Women are pregnant at inconvenient times or for inappropriate reasons. Women who have downs syndrome or severe depression or mental retardation are pregnant. Many women are pregnant for reasons other than the ideal.
The part that I don't get is that our society has decided that the way to solve these problems is obviously to KILL the baby.
Of course, we think, that will fix ALL the problems.
But... really... does it fix ANY of them?
These are all really bad things in our society. And what is a better way to solve them? I don't know...but forcing the woman, raped, a victim of incest, mentally retarded, depressed, or on drugs and incapable of even caring for a baby, to go through a pregnancy -which they may not be able to handle either, and then give up a baby, a traumatic experience in many cases, or even be forced to have and keep a baby? How is that better?
I think there's a huge distinction between murder and childbirth.
Let's say 10 years down the road when she recovers from depression or finds some miracle cure to a mental problem or overcomes her wounds caused by rape and incest... is it easier for her to deal with the fact that her baby is dead... or to deal with the fact that her baby is now a grown healthy adult with a loving adoptive family?
One option has hope. The other has none. Without hope... we are lost as a human race.
Um. I'm generally gonna stay out of this conversation. Mostly because I've run out of strong feelings either way.
The one part I'd like to interject in is that last sentence of Kristi's.
"One option has hope. The other has none. Without hope... we are lost as a human race."
I'm sorry, I'm gonna call bullcrap on this one. Are we saying that if we give up one on one particular case in one particular instance, we have lost all hope as a human race? Because that's what your words say.
This is the most horrible and blatant generalization of something I've just about ever seen. Very few things could arguably supercede kill someone in the annals of catholicism, but I do believe despair is one of those sins that has this ability.
In your sentence above, you present a false dichotomy. Allow me to paraphrase and insert those words that you may have unthinkingly left out.
If we decide to go through with a pregnancy, we are choosing the option of hope.
If we decide to go through with the abortion, we are choosing the option of dispair.
The first problem, here, is that this dichotomy only allows for any future change along one path. If no abortion happens now, in 10 years time we might have even more hope, or the middle ground of not caring (or the extremely unstressed 3rd option of extreme dispair, sometimes called depression, a common foible of single mothers). Is it not conceivable that the second path could allow for a similar 10 year change? You have an abortion, ten years later you are either happy and hopeful for your family, depressed, or generally unconcerned. I don't see why not.
Second problem: the idea that an abortion has a total lack of hope (which really means dispair in this case) seems like only a possibility instead of a guarantee in the real world. Are all women who have abortions suffering from depression 10 years down the road? I'm going to guess not. Maybe an awful lot are, maybe even significantly more than those who choose not to have abortions, but I'll bet there are a few who really could not have handled childbirth and separation 10 years ago and are relieved they didn't have to bear it.
Third, and lastly, here is some really depressing news. Recently a regression analysis was done that fairly conclusively determined that crime today has decreased due specifically to the legalization of abortions. Children who weren't aborted before, but whose mothers might have after the legalization, were almost always unwanted children, virtualy guaranteed to live lives of crime, drug addiction, and violence. It isn't a happy thought, but it is a reality. Tell me, would you feel more dispair with that question nagging at the back of your mind for the next 40 years, or with the sure knowledge that your son raped and killed someone?
Once again, and this may be hard to believe, but I really don't want to involve myself in this conversation. I simply take issue with the use of improper logic and was therefore forced to counter it. I use language harsher that normal, but this is a discussion that forces harsh language.
I, personally, find the term "anti-choice" to be offensive. Just because I'm pro-life doesnt mean I dont support women. What I dont support is women being forced to chose between their jobs/school/etc and their babies. And being pro-life doesnt mean I'm not pro-using birth control. Because I totally am. Condoms, etc. are totally great ways to keep from having a baby (or a yucky STD!).
HOWEVER, I like women too much to think that they should have to go through an abortion. Our society needs to be more pro women and pro mothers.
And in the cases of rape and incest, not all women want abortions. Many are forced into it by the abuser, to hide their crimes, when they would prefer to have the baby and get out of the bad situation. (this example is generally for women/girls who are being abused by someone who is a parent or someone in authority over them) Many women who are mentally retarded are raped and then forced into an abortion to help the abuser. One such case happened recently in Wichita where a woman with Down's Syndrome had been molested and was taken to Dr. Tiller, who performed a shoddy abortion that led to her death.
The Pro-Choice movement is the only one that regularly kills its members and still manages to gain more.
Wow, 3 posts and right into the fray of one of the biggest topics that almost never has a consensus.
My $0.02 is simply this. They are your opinions, go with them. If you wish to donate money to Planned Parenthood, then so be it.
and to Quote Forrest Gump: "That's all I have to say about that".
I did not want to be insulting with the anti-choice tag. That was not my intention. I believe that abortion for gives hope for SOME women, in situations that only she and her husband, or doctor, or whoever her support system (if she has one) is. And I am firmly on the pro-woman, birth control education, and pro-pregnancy. It's like this whole debate about breast-feeding your baby here in Kansas and how some people are so uncomfortable that they can't just smile uncomfortably and look away when a woman is feeding a baby. I think it's ridiculout that nursing a child has come to legislation. But she has a choice to do so...to have the child or not, and that is my point. And yes, some women don't want abortions and are forced into them or manipulated into them - that is just as wrong as somebody forcing a woman to have a child. Anybody forcing a woman to do either is basically saying that the woman doesn't matter, the only thing that matters is the potential life or the man who doesn't want to be punished or inconvenienced. SO yes, I am pro-woman.
If you're pro woman... then why don't you care about the tiny women who are killed every day in abortion? They're women too.
Abortion doesn't protect all women. It doesn't protect ANY women.
And do you know that abortion is one of those operations that doctors can run a "sale" on? Yeah... like on Jan 22nd when Dr. Tiller gives "FREE ABORTIONS!" "NO CHARGE!" "COME LET ME KILL YOUR BABY DAY!"
Doesn't it seem odd to anyone that this medical procedure doesn't fix anything?
Nate.
I stand by my comment.
Without hope (even GENERALLY), we are lost as a human race.
If there is no hope... then there is no reason for living at all.
It was a general statement and will continue to be one.
FWA to your crazy rant!
They are not tiny women. They are potentially women, or potentially men for that matter. I worry more for the women that have more than potential lives, that are actually living life. I don't really think they should be forced by religious groups, government, extremists, or men and women say they care but are really more worried about putting women in their "place" (I realize this is not everyone, please don't believe I'm putting you in this category)than caring for children. I think that a woman's pregnancy is her own personal business. We wouldn't allow the government or religious groups to force women to have abortions or kill the children (and this often happens in places, especially places that put an extremely high regard on males, and have extremely low regard for females.) In fact, many people read about this thing and get angry because the government is forcing these women to do this. They are not allowed to choose their own fate and are forced as Sara said, to do something they do not want to do. Whereas pro-life people want to force women to do the same thing, only on the opposite end.
As Christians, God has given us a mission to LOVE. To LOVE all people no matter how young or old, male or female, crazy or sane, etc.
How are we loving by legalizing murder? Abortion not only kills children... it kills mothers as well. Perhaps it doesn't kill them physically... but what about psychologically, spiritually, etc?
The human person is not just another living creature roaming this earth. Because we have intellect and will, we are called to a higher standard.
Aren't the 10 Commandments valid anymore or was that just something God said back in the day because it sounded good at the time?
---- Moreover (and prepare for me to rant... cuz I feel it bubbling up)... I think people forget something when they talk about children during the pro-life/pro-choice debate. This is not just a matter of a woman and baby. Or even just a matter of a woman and a man and a baby. Humans could NOT create life without God. We are merely co-creators. What an amazing gift God gave us when he decided that he would form new souls inside their mothers.
A woman, no matter how pregnancy occured, is in the process of co-creation with God. His hands are forming the baby inside of her and we say she should have the option of ripping that child out of his forming hands because it's not what she had planned?
I just don't get it. It doesn't make any sense to me. And it seems to go against every single thing that Christ taught us.
Kiki-
The problem I have with you and all pro-lifers is that you have innate ability to think you know what the right choices are for everyone. To generalize like you do is dangerous...while you think that you are absolutely right in your beliefs, it does not mean that someone else should have to live by your beliefs.
Fine, Joe... if you want to go that direction.. we'll go there.
You're right... no one has to believe or abide by my beliefs.
But everyone has certain rights, do they not?
Even our government says that we all have the rights to LIFE, LIBERTY and the PURSUIT OF HAPPINESS.
Forget "my beliefs"... look toward basic human rights.
One of the problems I have is that abortion clinics aren't regulated very well. (in some cases, even as well as a veternary clinic) Women are killed all the time in LEGAL abortions. Why arent all the pro-choice people out there screaming their bloody heads off that women are being killed and maimed from these legal abortions? Why aren't they trying to make them safer for women? That is what really gets me.
Kristi, perhaps it would aid in your arguement if you used actual facts instead of spiritual beliefs, random generalizations, and shock value statements that have no actual basis.
Sorry... had a typo in that one.
What I said was...
WELL DONE KATIE! This is a EXCELLENT blog already enticing many comments.
Props to you, girl!
Anon,
Thank you for your tip/opinion about my "argument."
Just for your info, everything I say has some sort of a basis. I don't say anything for "shock value." I speak from my heart and that's that.
In response to your "maybe if you use facts" comment... Facts are really just "facts". I mean if you look at the Planned Parenthood website you're going to find "facts" that contradict the "facts" on the Feminists for Life Website.
The reason I tend to not use statistics or "facts" in my arguments is basically that most facts are complete crap. And every statistic can be skewed to make whatever side look better.
Because I'm sick of this argument and generally believe it is heading into a mudslinging contest... this is my last post on this topic.
A thought I had in Mass today was that maybe this whole abortion debate is the devil distracting us.
I mean if you think about it... pro-lifers and pro-choicers spend all this time and energy arguing about whether murdering babies should be legal. Maybe instead of doing all that arguing and advocating... we could be working together to create a world that would lend itself to less women faced with the decision of abortion. (you know... like work on poverty... work on teaching men how to be loving men... coming up with medical cures to physical problems that hamper pregancy or child health, teaching chastity, etc. etc. etc.)
Abortion is just a symptom of a really messed up world.
Kristi -
Your last comment "Abortion is a sign of a messed up world" has the single best ring of truth I've ever heard.
Good point, Jan. I always wondered the same thing as well. Lots of pro-choicers are actually against partial birth abortions. How can that be? It they think it's ok to abort a baby in the 1st month, then why don't they feel that way about an abortion in the 7th month? Where is the line drawn?
K-dog,
I'm actually cool with your statement. I generally agree. Hope is essential. I just think you failed to adequately connect it to everything you said previous to that point.
If you'll note, my whole rant was based on that one point. I guess spending 2 years at a research based school makes logic failures especially evident and irritating.
Now, about using the facts. I often like to use a particular phrase, because I made up the second half. It is an important part of the daily life of research. That phrase is..
86% of all statistics are made up. And the other half aren't even real.
I did want to add a question here - are women entitled to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness as well, or only the potential life she carries? If not carrying the child enables her to have liberty and happiness, as well as a more fulfilling life, or at least a life where she can eventually become a mother (or not) at her choice, with a supportive significant other, than how does this go against basic human rights? As for late term abortions, they are illegal in ALL 50 states unless the mother's life is in danger! They only occur 1 in 1000 times, maybe less.
Also, if your argument is that god gave us intellect and reasoning abilities, than I would say that means we are supposed to USE them...including women, about what to do in their life. Shouldn't women choose to become a "co-creator" which entirely leaves out the father I might add, at least after he's done having fun! a wanted child. Adoption is always an option, but that is traumatic as well for many people, and the agencies make quite a few mistakes and end up placing children in abusive homes. That can't be a better choice for the child. Children of abusive homes have shown a higher tendency to abuse themselves, keeping the cycle going; plus there is a higher rate of unwed pregnancies, incest, drugs, and suicide for children of abusive homes.
Post a Comment