Hey all you female readers, and any men who want to discuss.
I'm reading a book about wives, modern wives, past wives, etc. It's a feminist research-oriented book, I usually get one every other time I go to the book store. Anyway, the author is asserting that today, being called a wife is considered an insult. The word wife, she has researched and claims, is used to describe a passive, quiet, June Cleaver type woman, and most women, even those who are getting married or ARE married, don't want to be called a wife, the wife of, or anything similar. I haven't finished the book yet, so this is all general stuff but I just wondered what you thought. I personally, don't really want to be considered a wife, but I DO want to get married again but only for the legal advantages and for the children - legal advantages. Otherwise, despite wanting a wedding, I don't really care about getting married. Anyway, I just wanted to open up a discussion about wives, marriage, commitment, kids, family, whatever...so any thoughts?
25 comments:
I dont have any problem being called a wife, but if anyone thought I was June Cleaver they'd be crazy. :-) My grandma thinks I'm spoiled because Brad does half the housework and gets up with the baby when she cries in the middle of the night.
I've never heard of anyone being insulted by being called a wife. I wouldnt have had a problem with not getting married and living in sin for the rest of my life because I dont need a piece of paper to keep me with Brad, but it doesnt bother me to be married.
I'm still trying to figure out if I should have a problem being called a wife. But I dont. :-)
But I still usually find a clean spot whenever Brad's mom leaves. She probably thinks I'm the worst housekeeper ever. But I can deal with that. I'm used to passive agressive crap. It's kind of fun sometimes.
June Cleaver is a hottie.
Um... yeah... my husband is weird.
I love being a wife. If I can call Andrew "husband"... then he should be able to call me "wife". I think it's neat.
Besides that... I think June Cleaver was AWESOME. If I had her cleaning, mothering, and wifing skills I would feel seriously blessed. Unfortunately, I SUCK at housekeeping and would rather watch Young and the Restless than cook dinner.
And to go biblical (cuz what else might you expect from me), when the bible says "A wife must be submissive to her husband", submissive means "under the mission of".
So if Andrew's mission is to help our children and I get to heaven, then I'm happy to be submissive to him. He is the head of our household and he heads it very well. (Especially when I offer suggestions) ;)
I don't have a problem with being called a wife either. In my mind it is just the word that goes with the piece of paper or common law's for the those without the paper unless a certain somebody says it (which is very rare) and then it makes me feel happy fuzzies. As for it being an insult, the only way I can see that is if it is used by someone with that tone on the word...the tone that you can't mistake their negative view of it.
dunno if I'm allowed to answer since I'm the evil male that tries to tie womyn with the word "wife" to keep them submissive and subservient....
But that's the stupidest thing I've really heard in a long time. The connotation is apparently very different for this oppressed womyn than it is for normal people, and like a true American she has to make everyone agree with her opinion.
This isn't the 50s anymore, anyone that would think my wife is the quiet submissive type really has no idea who she is.
Also, I grew up in a household where my mother was the authoritarian, not Dad. She ruled the roost and that was understood... yet she wears the mantle of Mrs. George Williams proudly.
In conclusion, the author was wronged (either in reality or just perceived) and feels that all womyn must follow her lead and ban the evil nasty word of wife.
Well, your opinions aside, the author did actually research this. It's not HER opinion, it's the results of her research. I'll be able to explain more clearly once I've read the entire book of course, I just thought it was interesting. I most people, Kristi and Andrew aside, think that aspiring to be June Cleaver is an insult because it was unrealistic. It's an insult not because she was a good wife, mother, whatever, but the notion of actually being a "good" wife is sexist and oppressive. Mainly because when you say, oh "she's a good wife" it may be a compliment, but it doesn't really say anything about her as a person. At least, I think that's sort of where the book is going - I"m only on the second chapter. And of course, there is the whole history of wives. I'll get to that soon. But I wasn't trying to go all sexist Brad - I'm interested in guys thoughts too, I just figured that AS wives the women would probably be able to at least answer whether they found that word offensive.
I think we pretty much all know how I feel about marriage and such. But I just have to agree with everyone here and say, what in the world is wrong with the word wife. Now, "my bitch" I would have a problem with:) But wife...when you get married you became husband and wife, so why would it be insulting to use that word. It just makes no sense to me. And I think that is why feminism drives me nuts. They take simple, common things and turn them into a big deal. It's like the whole opening doors for women. It used to be a nice gesture, now it's the male trying to be dominant and show how weak the woman is that she can't open her own door. It's just silliness.
You know it's funny. I'm hearing all of you and I must not have phrased the question or comment correctly. Or maybe you don't have a problem with the word. But I'm getting further into the book, learning why the word wife as come to mean subservant, dominated, needs a man to take care of her, etc. and why so many women take offense at being called that, and I'm nodding along with the book and then I listen to you guys and I'm like, maybe I explained incorrectly. So I'll have to devote a whole new post because really, really, really long comments annoy me - when I do them, I mean. I think many women are happy to be married and assume that husband and wife go together - the words I mean...but why is it that men are never the husband of? Unless of course, it's like the current husband of Elizabeth Taylor. And Kristi, I'm glad you're happy but when you commented it just made me glad that when/if I get married again I won't have to become submissive to my husband - no matter how benign it may be or is or you think it is - and that we'll actually be partners in a household. I'd never want to be the head of the household and it's kind of unfair for men to have to be too...stressful. Also, I think we can all agree that June Cleaver may have had a lot going for her, except for all the stuff she couldn't have that I think a lot of women today ignore when they aspire to be like that. Maybe it doesn't matter. Although it does to me. Anyway, look out for a new post and I'll try to condense this large book with a fairly short post.
Oh, and Kristi again, I realized after I posted that my comment may have been an insult. But I didn't intend it to be - I kind of admire you for sticking to your religious guns so to speak and following the church. I don't necessarily agree and certainly don't want to do it, which is why I'm not religious anymore, but I still admire it.
OH! And I seem to remember June Cleaver as being kind of hot too - though it's been awhile. So Andrew, yeah, she is kind of hot.
I think I understand what you're saying about the "this is the wife of..." whereas you hardly ever hear, "this is the husband of..." but it seems like you're thinking of the trophy wife image type thing. Just average, normal families don't have that issue, it doesn't seem. When Sara got married, she didn't lose her identify of Sara and becomes "brad's wife." Brad's friends may say, that's his wife. But her friends say, that's her husband. I just don't see how the term wife can be an issue among average people. Celebrities or super rich people maybe. But normal America? I don't see it.
I wasn't offended at all! But thanks for thinking of me!! :) This whole blog post quite amuses me actually. Good stuff, Katie!!
I'm not sure I am going for amusing but thanks. Actually this book is making me sad. Instead of society changing, growing, or men changing and growing, or culture, etc...it seems to always be the women who have to change.
sometimes when we're being silly we call each other "husband" and "wife", but then again we also have arguments that end in "because" and "whatever!" and "your mom!" So we may not be the people you want to look to.
I would be offended if my whole identity to the world was as brad's wife, but it's really only my identity to people who only know him, like Kay said. they could be like, oh that's his wife, or whatever, but its the same for people who only know me, that he's just my husband.
And I'm not sure I agree with Andrew. I've never felt that June cleaver was a hottie. But then, I was never super attracted to anyone in the Cleaver family, although she is the most attractive member. :-)
It's like that scene in "Fools Rush In" where they're like, Hello, my husband, hello, my wife...Good stuff. I love that movie.
And Katie, how come Nick never comments on your blog. Don't tell me he has a life unlike the rest of us:) Okay, I guess I shouldn't say the rest of us b/c that might get me tarred and feathered. I'll just say, unlike me...For that matter, kristi, I think this is like the second time Andrew has ever commented on one of these blogs. At least that I've noticed.
I have a question about the research the author has done. Does she get into specifics of the different types of women she has asked? Because WHO she may have interviewed makes all the difference in the world.
Yeah... Andrew's not a big blog reader. He only reads when I tell him it's stuff that he might find interesting. And then his comments usually come in the form of me saying "Andrew says" or I will type them for him. He doesnt' understand my love of blogging.
I haven't looked at the endnotes yet or the bibliography, but she's citing some pretty heavy studies done by various medical and governmental organizations. And the women are also varied - many are what people would probably call "average." I'll try to write some notes down about the different types of women.
Cool, thanks for that. By the way, what is this book called? You really have me intrigued by this subjuect and I would like to read more about it myself.
Not that I agree with the authors assertions or anything. Wife is just a word, and it is only an insult if you are looking for a reason to make it one. I can thing of many things I would hate to be called more than "wife." And I don't even particularly care if I ever am one. I also don't know anyone who thinks of June Cleaver when they think of wives, and I am really curious where these people who think this are.
I have to lean towards Ramee's assertion that the research was biased. You can do many wonderful things with numbers so that they can lean towards your particular viewpoint.
This whole thing of Wife being subservient to a man is silly. Especially in today's day & age. Are you going to find someone who still thinks that? Of Course, the world is to diverse not to have narrow mindedness dissapear, but I'd hardly think in average americana you'd find someone who thinks that a wife is beneath him.
Hell if I thought that, I'd not have cleaned the house up this weekend, as that's "women's work".
Actually, I wasn't really going into "wife's work" and roles and whether husbands think their wives are beneath them. This is all on WOMEN thinking that wife is a pejorative term and why. As for the research, I'm not talking statistics here, at least not yet, and it's not the woman's research that's biased - she's citing MEDICAL studies, which could be biased I suppose, but I'm more skeptical about that than say, some pro-bomb website saying something like, bomb aren't hazardous to people's health. It's not a great example, but it gets the point across. I haven't had a chance to read for a while anyway cause I've been busy, but it's not really supposed to be a sexist type of book - although this book has a lot of history and the role of wife has historically been something very oppressed, in most cases.
Well, Katie, i will not deny (to do so would be an exersize in futility and raving lunacy) the fact that since the dawn of written history, women have been oppressed and shoved into a corner by men. My Gender has done many wrongs in the deluded mindset of being the dominant gender.
But I guess I read this as a backlash of sorts, fighthing against any perceived wrong done by men by taking a word and claiming it to be evil.
I'm not trying to be argumentative here (well, maybe I am; sometimes the Devil's Advocate is fun to play) but I can't help but feel this book is a bit of a backlash against the male dominated culture.
I understand the need to change things to be equal, but to remove everything simply "because" is overkill.
I never saw Mrs Cleaver as hot... she reminded me a lot of my Grandmother for me to think that.
Actually medical studies can often be biased, especially if the researcher already has an agenda of what he/she wants the outcome to be. For instance a doctor already part of an institution with an anti-gay bias, conducting research that he concludes shows that gay people are more likely to be pedophiles than straight people. We can't really trust his research at all, can we?
But I really don't know if the author is biased because I haven't read the book and so I don't know what studies she sites. I just find the conclusion she has drawn to be odd, because I had never perceived it to be an issue. And I do consider myself a feminist.
The name of the book is The Meaning of Wife and it's by Anne Kingston, so I suggest everyone check it out from the library and start reading. Maybe our discussion can keep going.
Good Grief Katie, what kind of discussion have you gotten into NOW!~? hehehe Let's see....my two cents....I suck at being a "house"wife....the word wife doesn't bother me, unless as Audrie said, it's used in that "tone". I guess it all depends on a persons view of what a wife is....everyone will have a different view of that, due to their parental influences, of course.
Oh, and I agree with Ramee...there are much worse things to be called than wife, as well as not thinking of June Cleaver as a wife....I think of her as an impossible ideal mother figure, not a 'real' wife. lol-Judy
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