Thursday, September 11, 2008
Youth Librarianship
We've been talking in my youth library services class about what children's or young adult librarians are there for - what do they provide to kids. And one of our topics was a right to privacy - kids need to know that no one will know what they are using or checking out from the library. And how hard it can be, with parents who want to protect their kids, or don't think certain ages can read certain things, etc. I was wondering how any of you, loyal readers, might discuss this. I come at it from the librarian's perspective, so what about a parent's perspective, or someone who isn't either? If it helps, you'll be helping me in my graduate studies and toward being one of those people who will help your kids someday, maybe. Or kids like yours.
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39 comments:
Although I typically would agree more with the parents have a right to know, kind of thing, what are librarians supposed to do? Call parents and give them a printout everytime a kid walks through the door? That would be like the grocery store clerk calling someone's parents if they bought lube or something. It just doesn't make sense. Kay
I have always been more of the parents don't have a right to know - that kids have just as much right to privacy and access as adults. That's both me and me as librarian. And yes, it is also an issue of how to tell the parent.
But it also depends on age.
I mean, I can totally understand if your 10 year old came in and wanted a book on like, how to give great oral sex or something. As a parent, I'd want to talk to them about it, but as a librarian, I have a duty to give them the book.
But what if the kid is only 2 months away from being 18 - does it matter then?
Is there actually such a book out there? I mean, I'm sure there is because there are books on virtually everything, but how utterly embarrasing to even check out or buy such a book. I'd probably furtively read it in the aisle and then throw it over my shoulder if anyone should happen along...There's no way I'd check out a book like that as a minor. What is wrong with kids today? Kay
Most of the kids that are in the library checking out lots of materials are not the ones who need to be monitored closely, because they are usually the responsible ones. The parents of the trouble-making children would probably just be thrilled that their kids where spending time in the library!
I'm not really talking about trouble makers though. I'm talking about if a student checks out a book that might be considered "sensitive" - ie, a sex education books like It's Perfectly Normal, or something about birth control or abortion or suicide. Should parents be informed of that? Or do kids have a right to privacy the same as adults?
well, if my daughter was checking out a book on how to commit suicide, I'm pretty sure I'd want to know about it. Sara
So then, you're arguing that kids DON'T have a right to privacy that say, you would expect from checking out a book. Does that change the minute she turns 18? So if she's a week away from 18, we should tell you but if she waits until she's 18, then we can't because in that week she's gained more rights? And incidentally, that book on suicide does exist, and my group had to answer a question about a kid looking for it. All of us agreed, that while we might not like the thought that the kid gets the books, we have a duty and obligation to help them find it and check it out. Of course, I'm hoping to be working in schools, so they'll have guidelines for things like that - I can go to the school counselor, etc.
Wait...are there actually books on how to commit suicide?
As for kids and privacy, I do think they have a right to it under most circumstances. But if a kid is checking out books that indicate they may be in a troubling situation then I do think parents should be told. It shouldn't be mandatory but I think the option should be there.
We talked about if there are mandatory rules in place for that situation, and how we might deal with it. Basically, we talked about the different reasons a kid might want to check out a book about suicide. Like, maybe a friend is contemplating it? But none of us really feel that it would be right to NOT let the kid check out the book. And if it's a large public library, it would mean looking up a kid's information and calling perfect strangers to report it - who might not believe us.
You keep bringing up the whole, what if a kid is two weeks from being 18, etc, which I find irrelevant. Even if it's 11:59 from a kid's 18th birthday, whatever laws that stand that say a kid can't do something until they're 18 apply. No, they don't automatically gain any sort of amazing understanding or maturity with one minute but we have to draw a line somewhere. If we say, two months before they are 18, well, then, why not three months? Etc. It could go on and on...It's semantics but I couldn't hold my tongue any longer:) Kay
Well, yes, it's semantics, but I think it's a legitimate question. Do kids have the same privacy rights as adults? And if not, is there some sort of ladder of rights that they get as they get older? I'm asking, not IF a kid CAN do something, because they can, but do parents need to be notified. Not WANT to, because that's a different issue. But do parents HAVE to be notified if a kid is checking out a book they don't like? And does it change through different ages, if so?
There's definitely a ladder of rights. Kids don't have the mental ability to be able to make certain decisions, which is why we have minor laws in this country. They are biologically not capable of making decisions that adults are making. In this particular case, again, I don't think librarians should have a legal responsibility to contact parents about things kids are checking out. In other situations, like if a child is having an abortion or getting birth control pills, then I do think parents should have a right to know, but as we all know, that is not the way it is in this country. I figure as long as my 16 year old can have an abortion without my knowledge, she probably should be able to check out a book about sex. The problem is the whole system. Kay
Also, explain this one to me, why can a child have an abortion without their parents knowledge, but can't get their wisdom teeth removed with a parent's signature? Or can't go talk to a counselor (not school) without their parents legal involvement. What kind of a world is this? Kay
Well, I'm not talking about abortion here, just right of privacy in finding information. But most states do have parental-notification laws - and the others HAVE to abide by them. I'll get back to you about the federal law saying that if a state has a parental notification law, then the kid can't ask say, her aunt to take her to a state without one. Okay - mandatory parental involvement laws, I can find out how many states have them if you're interested. And then there's the child Interstate Abortion Notification Act which is the one I was talking about. And I don't know how to answer your last question. It's a crazy world - we just have different criteria?! :-)
Also, to get back to the point, cause I get sidetracked...you answered my question: kids CAN check out any kind of information at a library and librarians are NOT mandated to inform parents of what they are looking for/at, etc. Also, can I ask you WHY a parent has a "right" to know. I mean, I understand WANTING to know - I would want to know. But why do they have a RIGHT to know?
Because, as a parent we are liable for anything that kid does before he/she hits the age of 18. ANYTHING. They get in trouble, we pay the fines. Since we're responsible for them legally, and financially, that gives us the authority to dictate what they do. That's the right and duty of a parent.
It may be arbitrary, and there may be no fireworks or fanfare the moment it happens, but 18 is the age of adulthood in this country. Therefore, parents are legally responsible for them from -9 months until 17 years 23 hours 59 minutes and 59 seconds.
Then there's the grey area of common sense, which seems to have gone the way of the dodo these days. Not all of the books should trigger a notification, but some big ones, like "best sex ever" or "how to kill yourself in 4 easy steps"
Here's one for good discussion, "Mein Kampf" or "Communist Manifesto" are these ones that should be flagged as a parent notifier?
Liable for destruction of property or things that are illegal, yes. But what about things that aren't illegal, they're just things that parents are touchy about. And I've read Mein Kampf, when I took my Holocaust course - it's very dull. But I think most parents would just assume it's for an assignment - especially if the kid told them that.
To follow up with your suggestion of a discussion, there's some books that are on this list of things to watch out for regarding anti-social, dangerous warnings and Mein Kampf is definitely one of them. There's also one on serial killers (I can't think of the title). Should parents be warned about that if they check it out? And what would we do? Or what would parents do? Hopefully counseling, if it's suicide or an honest talk if it's some book on sex. But if parents aren't going to do that, just in a general sense, because they've probably NOT done that before, if the kid is looking for certain information (although I'd hate the parents having an honest talk about best ways to commit suicide!) shouldn't they have it?
I agree with Brad's point. It irritates me to death that parent's are legally and morally responsible for their children's behaviors but then aren't allowed to have certain information about them. We can't have it both ways. Either parents are responsible and have the right to information about their kids or they don't have the right and then aren't responsible. Kay
I guess I'm wondering exactly what behaviors fall under the "parents are legally and morally responsible for them" - at least in terms of societal laws/norms. For example - if a sixteen year old takes a gun to class and shoots his classmates, are the parents then tried for murder? Or is it the sixteen year old who is punished, legally. What about if, heaven forbid, a six year old did it? Obviously, parents will be looked at and probably sued- but are they tried for that particular behavior? That said, even though parents are responsible for their children and raising them, hopefully in a good manner and in a good way (I know, vague) children are NOT their parents property. They're autonomous people and therefore have the rights of other autonomous people from birth until death. So they have certain rights while children, more as they get older, complete rights (legal) once adults. What rights then, do children actually have, in regard to privacy, as autonomous people and what rights go by the wayside under the umbrella of "parents need to know." What things do parents NEED to know, because it will affect them and what things do parents WANT to know because they might agree or disagree with such behavior or ideas or reading materials, etc.? And of course, I've resolved the issue as a librarian - I' going to give them the book how the have great sex! But if it's a ten year old, yeah, I'm gonna be uncomfortable and hope it's not because they're having sex.
Kids just DONT have the same rights as adults. I mean, in schools they can search your locker without a warrant, and I'm ok with that. I have no problem with them at least notifiying some sort of authority figure, even if it's not a parent, if an underage kid is checking out books on suicide or abortion. Or maybe even fetal development so that we dont have those girls leaving their babies in trashcans.
When my dad was a teenager he had a friend come over and ask to borrow his dad's flashlight and some sort of knife. Dad said no b/c he didnt want to get in trouble if he didnt return his dad's flashlight, and then the kid ended up killing himself by cutting a hose and attatching it to his exhaust and filtering it through the window of the car- at night. If my dad had known the kid wanted to kill himself with those items, he could have notified someone, and he still feels guilty. How would you, as a librarian, feel about checking a book on suicide out to a kid and not say, refering them to a counsiler and they killed themself 2 days later? You would feel terrible, right? Like you could have helped and didnt? I think that is also a problem you need to think about.
Sara
Well, as a PERSON I would feel awful...but I still think people, including teens and kids, have the right to information. Information about anything. In a school, there's a system for reporting behavior that might be suspicious, and I'm probably going to work in a school. But if I worked in a public library, I don't know how to report it. For one thing, we might not know exactly HOW a person would be using the material. Maybe they had a friend or family member who just committed suicide and they want to know more, or maybe they have parents who feel that they should have no privacy whatsoever and they want to check out a book on something they don't want their parents to find.
But just feeling terrible doesn't mean that we patrons, including kids DON'T have the right to that information. I'd want to help people - and that includes providing information about abortion, or adoption, or biology, or religion, or anything else.
"Liable for destruction of property or things that are illegal, yes. But what about things that aren't illegal, they're just things that parents are touchy about."
You made my point in this comment, it's up to the parents to decide, not you.
"I guess I'm wondering exactly what behaviors fall under the "parents are legally and morally responsible for them" - at least in terms of societal laws/norms"
The kids are the parents responsibility. Your example of the 16 year old going postal at a school, the kid would be tried criminally, but I have a strong suspicion that the parents will be sued civially, for their childs transgressions.
If they're under 18, they don't have the same rights as adults. simple as that. They are their parents responsibility until that moment.
But if a kid does end up committing suicide after checking out a bookabout it at the library, then it really isn't the librarians fault. It may feel that way to grieving parents, and the librarian would likely feel awful, but it still isn't his/her fault.
And then there is the possibility of the parents being offended about an outside party butting in, which isn't exactly fair but it does happen. Of course this may all be moot point anyway, because don't libraries now have to report supiscious book check-outs to the government if asked because of the Patriot Act?
My point isn't that I'D decide. It'd be the kid deciding. I can't REFUSE to check out a book. Or do you think I should refuse, on the off chance that a parent wouldn't like it?
And how did I make your point, Brad? I was asking whether or not a librarian should censor information if a parent or parents MIGHT not like a subject or book. From what you're saying, I'm guessing you DO approve of censoring kids from information that their parents MIGHT not like - for example, a book on sex education for parents that are fundamentalist Christians and wouldn't want their kids to know about condoms. To me, information is free and open for everyone - this is a personal as well as professional opinion. There are tricky things - the book about suicide that describes methods, for example. But in the end I don't think anyone, including parents, really have the right to deny information - they have the right to disseminate it themselves, and the right to prohibit their kids from going - but not the right to stop me from giving those kids the information they want/need if I'm asked for it. Or maybe, parents have the right, but it's immoral to do so? I'm not sure about the wording. Ramee, thanks for your thoughts - any more?
Do book stores have to tell the parents what their kids are buying? I don't really think it is your place to inform them. The parents should be asking where their kids are and what they checked out. If they check out something potentially harmful and the parents never asked, how is it your responsibility if something happens? Kids don't necessarily have the right to privacy from their parents, the parents can legally snoop if they want to, but they do have it when it comes to receiving services, like from librarians. Your job is to provide that service, and how would you know if the parents disapproved? It's the parents responsibility to ask and that is the only time you should have to tell them anything.
Say a parent does ask...do I have an obligation to tell or do kids deserve privacy? And if they don't why not? Do parents NEED to be notified if a child picks out a book a parent deems immoral? Why? Do kids only deserve information that parents approve of, or do kids deserve all information?
I don't really know that parents need to be notified. I guess it would depend on the immoral thing they were checking out. Because what one person deems immoral, others don't see the big deal. But I think if you are asked, and it isn't like a violation of some ethics thing, then yes you should tell. It isn't your place to intervene if a parent does decide to invade their child's privacy. But use your own judgement, I think it's pretty good.
Do kids only deserve information that parents approve of, or do kids deserve all information?
Short answer: yes.
This is my kid, given to me to raise as I see fit, not how you or the person down the street, but me.
If I don't want her reading something, then that's my right as a parent. Is it your job to censor it? My say is no, again, it's not your job to raise my kid. However, if it's a suggetive book, like how to make a bomb, or how to kill yourself in 3 easy steps, I sure as hell should be notified as a parent.
Perhaps this is where our empass is. I'm approaching this as a parent. I don't want other people throwing their ideologies on my kid without my say so. It's not your kid, it's mine.
I guess my view is that I'm not going to call parents unless that kid has written out some kind of ten step plan for bombing his school and checks out a book on how to make a bomb. And I'd probably call the police first. I have no right to judge what kind of information they want or what their curiosity might be all about. I think kids deserve their privacy and that I have an obligation to them, not their parents, to provide them with information. My job is not to "protect" their kids from information - whether it's about sex or how to build a bomb or math or evolution. I may want to help the kids who I feel need help - ie, a kid who seems suicidal or destructive.
And as a parent, I'd hope that information I couldn't give would be given by someone responsible enough to steer them to accurate information. But then, as a parent, I'd really hope I'm not protecting my children merely because of emotion. I don't think that I own my children; I'm their guidepost, their teacher, their mentor, their disciplinarian...my job is to get them to adulthood with the capacity to be a competent, successful adult.
And other people's ideologies are always being thrown at your children: I don't want the right-wing, religious conservatives throwing their ideas about morality at my kids, when I have them, but that doesn't mean they won't. I'd think your job would be to teach them how to think for themselves - and part of thinking for yourself is finding out all the information you can, even if your parents want to "protect" you from it.
And you still didn't answer my question about WHY parents have the RIGHT to know what books their children' might be checking out? Merely because they're raising them? Kids aren't their own individuals with rights of their own, albeit limited ones that grow as they get older?
I did answer it, you just didn't like my answer. I have the right to know what my kid is reading because she's my kid.
If I read your response right, the only time you'd step in and warn the parents if they've outlined the school and have a tactical situation for their English teacher. I'm going to assume that's a bit drastic. Everybody has instincts. I'm sure if your gut told you 'this ain't right' you'd do something about it.
Just saying that she's your kid doesn't mean it's your right. There are lots of things that aren't your rights when it has to do with kids: beating them with sticks comes to mind - kids have rights too.
Actually, saying it's my kid DOES make it my right. They cannot legally enter into a contract, they cannot legally sue someone for damages, they have NO right to privacy at school. Any wrongdoing on the child's part, I'm financially responsible. So yes, It's my right as a parent to know what my kid is reading/doing/seeing.
From sara whom I'm posting by proxy:
She's at work and can't log in
"I think it should be like grades, you should be able to log on to the library's website and see what your kid has checked out if you are so inclined. "
If they know you're going to be checking, what will they or won't they check out? Is knowing worth the loss of information your kid would face because they want some privacy?
"Is knowing worth the loss of information your kid would face because they want some privacy?"
I don't understand this question.
What loss of information? You mean if they knew we were keeping tabs on them they'd not read a book We, as parents, don't approve? If that's what you meant, then Yes, it's worth it.
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